DieselTalk

DieselEngineTrader's FREE Diesel Engine Forums

new topic search Categories login View Caterpillar Engines

CATEGORY LISTINGS > CATERPILLAR > 2005 C15 CAT ACERT (SERIAL # MXS17192) J-Ball Electronics ECMs?

[ REFRESH ]

Thread Title:

2005 C15 CAT ACERT (SERIAL # MXS17192) J-Ball Electronics ECMs?

Created On Thursday July 01, 2010 23:01

BONESAW

Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 2010

Thursday July 01, 2010 23:01

I stopped by the Diesel Doctor's again today to have them check out the fuel economy since they "worked" on the truck back in June. Fuel economy, according to the computer, showed a drop from 6.4 something to 6.3 something. I'd like to know how the computer is averaging 6's when I'm seeing mostly 5's every time I get fuel & do the averaging myself. The guy asked me the last time I had an overhead done. I told him we haven't had that done since we bought the truck Easter of last year. He said you should have it done every 100k miles. I put 300 some odd thousand miles on the truck before this one & never once had an overhead done. It was an 01' W9 with the 6NZ 550 CAT & it got high 5's to low 6's all the time with the occasional 7 something. Towards the end though, getting close to the million mile mark, it did dip down towards the high 4's low 5's. But anyway he said to get that done & have them clear out the driver profile so he'd be able to see if that helped the fuel economy. So yeah any opinions out there on how often an overhead should be done? Also has anyone ever used an ECM from J-Ball Electronics? I noticed in a different thread someone talking about doing a search on eBay for "caterpillar ecm" & found that company selling em'. http://jballelectronics.com/ is the site for those of you that haven't heard of em'. The prices are pretty high dollar but if they help out with the fuel economy the way they advertise then it'd be worth it. Just have to take it easy on the pedal is all, right? Treat it as if there's an egg between your foot & the pedal c'mon. For some people they treat it as if its a rotten egg. I try to take it easy but I do enjoy catching a draft from that front door every now & again...

-------------------------
"Some How I'm Truckin'!"

Quote

Top

Bottom

JoeZ

Posts: 938
Joined: Dec 2008

Friday July 02, 2010 06:15

Opinion only here.....but I believe that the fewer times you open up an engine, the better off you are. I have only one customer that goes by the 100,000 mile rule. Most customers go with 250,000 miles or more. Even at that, most times you check first, you need little or no adjustment, however, each engine is different and heat, cold, oil changes, idle time, and even different drivers will have an effect on engine wear. For sure if you haven't had it done, it's time to do it.

-------------------------
One of the last 2 Stroke mechanics left.
44 years in the business and worked on everything from 53 series to 149 series. Winding it down now...time to move on.

Quote

Top

Bottom

Mobiletech

Posts: 94
Joined: Jun 2010

Friday July 02, 2010 06:43

The ecm uses vehicle speed as part of the mileage calculation so if your speed is not calibrated right it will be off. You need to know if your speedo on the dash and the speed your ecm is seeing are the same because they could be off a bit.
The sweet spot for mileage is about 1350 to 1450 rpm. If you rev higher then this most of the time your mileage will drop.On the hills let it lug down , higher rpm doesn't give you a lot more power. Peak torque is at 1250 rpm.

Quote

Top

Bottom

TDcrash63

Posts: 163
Joined: Sep 2007

Friday July 02, 2010 17:40

This is my understanding of how this works. If you build 100 engines with all new parts you will always have one that runs stronger and one that is the weakest. Cat solves this problem by first trimming all the injectors to make the fuel delivery even. Secondly by dynoing the engine with the fuel system connected to a flow meter to measure the exact amount going in and the exact amount coming out the fuel return. It then caculates the fuel going into the engine. They use the FLS FTS numbers in the ecm to fine tune this number thereby making all IE 475 or 550 or whatever engine basicly identical in power out put and also thereby calibrating the estemated fuel rate numbers in the ecm. The engine has no way of actually knowing how much fuel the engine is burning. It can only estimate it by the amount of time the injectors are held open in milliseconds. As the engine wears and the injector tips grow or the injectors wear and lose delivery potential these estimations become less and less acurate. The engine would need flow meters on the inlet fuel and outlet fuel to actually calculate fuel burned accuratly. When you start playing with the trims and FLS FTS numbers you are changing how the ecm calculates this most likely telling it fuel delivery is low so it holds the injectors open longer allowing more fuel in the cylinders. Basicly fooling it. At one time we were allowed to change these numbers on the dyno or doing what is called a par dyno. Due to abuse and the feds this has all been taken away. Usually what I have experienced is if the engine is running correctly IE air system is good, exhaust system is good. Fuel system functioning as it should turning up the fuel makes for better fuel milage overall. If there is a problem Worn injectors, plugged exhaust dmaged turbo. It will make more power but fuel milage goes down. as you cannot compensate for a problem. If you turn it way up it most likely goes the other way at some point. We would set the engines up to max spec or top of spec and they would run sweet. better milage, and a 475 would usually put 415 to the ground 500 to 520 at the flywheel. sometimes playing with it you could get 100 or more above spec as on the early et program once you got passwords as long as you did not shut the engine off you could keep changing them. After about a year they somehow changed it so you needed passwords every time. Now you can only do it when generating level 3 passwords and if caught dealership is fined and you would be looking for a job. Valve cover settings only. I am unsure how the aftermarket dealers do there magic. I know if you tell the Ecm the fuel is hot IE fool the fuel temp it will adjust the fuel up as hot fuel contains less btu or power. If you fool the atmospheric pressure IE lower elevation it will also richen up the engine. I am sure there are many other tricks also.

Edited: Friday July 02, 2010 at 17:47 by TDcrash63

Quote

Top

Bottom

desertstormboy

Posts: 372
Joined: May 2008

Sunday July 04, 2010 19:43

you hit the nail on the head td....the ecm uses so many different inputs to create outputs to the engine. that is why a lot of drivers "trick" the ecm to thinking different things. if you put a resistor on the fuel temperature sensor, trick the atmospheric pressure sensor to lower elevation, trim files or injector codes for the 3406's. if you trick the ecm to think differently, you can create your own horsepower. that is why a lot of people ask about these little "do's and don"t's" for the horsepower the engine is actually capable of producing. As a CAT technician, we only get "taught" CAT specs, but after working and testing different things, you can narrow down and fine tune your engine if you have the proper equipment and access to be able to change parameters. Just look back at the older B engines...no electronics there and they were a lot easier to test different things with. i hear stories of 3406's creating around 750 horses, but along with that is a lot of "tinkering" with the engine and some parts also. if you are worried about a 10th of a mile per gallon, dont worry about an overhead adjustment. If your engine has lots of miles on it, then a lot of things can be worn and an adjustment may not help at all. Just imagine how many times an injector spring goes up and down over a period of 200 thousand miles. Now imagine after 500 thousand miles. Think about the advantages and disadvantages of what an overhead would do for your engine. td again nails it by saying how not to open up an engine if it is un necessary. dirt from the valve covers being removed, maybe the tech that is doing the overhead makes a bad adjustment and the engine runs worse than it is now, maybe they check the adjustments and they are within specs and dont adjust anything at all and still charge you the $350 for doing absolutely nothing but letting dirt get into your engine and cause further damage to other components of the engine. I could go on all night, but as a tech for cat, if you really dont need it,,dont do it. Once they get your truck into the shop, you might find them trying to get you to do more work that is not necessarily needed. if your fuel mileage was 6.5 and now its 5.5 maybe an overhead possibly would help, but just for a 10th of a mpg or so,,,wouldnt bother. mpg is mostly on the driver of the truck and the routes taken on loads. a driver that runs out west on open highway will get better mileage than a driver that has to go across the rockies every week. how the truck is designed has a lot to do with mpg, per say a sleeper truck and a flatbed truck pulling a van trailer. weight of the load your pulling, idle time and so much other stuff that could better your gas mileage. word of advice if you havent taken any of the above.....Do what is right and what is necessary.

-------------------------
IT WENT BING BANG BOOM!

Quote

Top

Bottom

BONESAW

Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 2010

Sunday July 04, 2010 20:48

"JoeZ Posts: 343 Joined: Dec 2008
Friday July 02, 2010 06:15 (NEW!)"

Do you have any idea how much it should cost to have an overhead done? What do they do exactly? He also mentioned getting the air-to-air tested for leaks. Do they have a machine that does that or what? What could go wrong when getting the overhead done? The coolant temp runs high to the point where the needle on the gauge is constantly floating where the fan kicks on at about 215 degrees. Would getting the coolant changed help it cool down at all? Anything else that could help cool it down? The oil temp runs just fine staying around 175 degrees with the occasional dip towards 190 or so when the engine is working hard.

-------------------------
"Some How I'm Truckin'!"

Quote

Top

Bottom

BONESAW

Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 2010

Sunday July 04, 2010 20:53

"TDcrash63 Posts: 43 Joined: Sep 2007
Friday July 02, 2010 17:40 (NEW!)"

Yeah I know what you're talking about with the fuel pump & other "tricks". I've got some cat power harnesses made by "Diesel Freak" out of Gaylord, MI. The fuel temp sensor harness does that cold fuel trick & the boost sensor helps with the turbo lag. That Diesel Doctor was telling me about the "fuel pump shimmy" trick. Something about unscrewing the bolt on the fuel pump & getting something (concave something) from a hardware store & cutting it to fit flush in there... I don't remember exactly what he said but I don't think I'll be doing it. I'd like to try that FASS (Fuel Air Separation System) one of these days to see if that helps. I'm also thinking about switching over to Rotella T6 synthetic oil. The truck has 589k miles on it & it'll have over 600k next oil change.

-------------------------
"Some How I'm Truckin'!"

Quote

Top

Bottom

BONESAW

Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 2010

Sunday July 04, 2010 20:54

desertstormboy Posts: 220 Joined: May 2008
Sunday July 04, 2010 21:43 (NEW!)

You know I was wondering why the Diesel Doc said to get an overhead when we never had one done on the truck I had before this. I suppose its because the mileage didn't go up like they say it should. Lately I've been having problems with the truck overheating alot. The friction plate was worn to all hell so we bought a clutch fan rebuild kit & went through with changing all that out. It was fine the first trip after changing that but this past trip (today) the truck overheated again. I was driving down the road at 60 mph (Michigan Speed Limit) & the SOB started flashin' lights & buzzin'. So I turned off the air conditioner & slowed down to 55. It took awhile to cool down to 200, bout 15 minutes or so, & it didn't overheat the rest of the trip. What can I do to get the damn coolant to run cooler? Its constantly flirting with the 215 mark where the fan kicks on. 230 is where the lights & buzzer come on. I'm getting sick of not being able to run the damn air conditioner while driving down the road in 90 degree heat. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

-------------------------
"Some How I'm Truckin'!"

Quote

Top

Bottom

TDcrash63

Posts: 163
Joined: Sep 2007

Sunday July 04, 2010 22:03

I would try to look between the charge air cooler and the front of the radiator with a flash light to see how much if any debrie, bugs paper road grime is stuck to the front of the radiator. You can also look at the upper and lower corners of the radiator with the hood closed it you can see that it is very dirty there it is probably even dirtier behind the charge air cooler. usually if the truck runs fine in cooler temps but hot on warmer days, it is external plugging but with the miles you have it may be internally restricted also. I would get it fixed the higher temps are hard on the head gaskets and cylinder heads ect. If your water pump impeller s slipping or loose your symptoms will be engine overheats and will not cool down when load is removed and engine is speed is up at 1800

Edited: Monday July 05, 2010 at 17:03 by TDcrash63

Quote

Top

Bottom

desertstormboy

Posts: 372
Joined: May 2008

Monday July 05, 2010 07:04

the air conditioning has nothing to do with overheating. actually it helps. once the head pressure hits around 300psi, the fan comes on, so in all actuallity, it cools your engine as well. like td says, if you are seeing those temps check for debris on the a/c condenser, charge air cooler and radiator. make sure the fan belts are tight if you dont have a serpentine belt. u just built the fan clutch so the fan should be coming on properly. have you checked your thermostats to see if they are not sticking? check your upper and lower coolant hoses to make sure they are same temp. hopefully you have never used the stop leak crap that some people dump into their engines. all that stuff does is clog up every orifice in the block and head. also your water pump may be going out. i have seen plenty of those water pumps break internally on the shaft not letting the coolant circulate.

-------------------------
IT WENT BING BANG BOOM!

Quote

Top

Bottom

BONESAW

Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 2010

Monday July 05, 2010 21:54

TDcrash63 Posts: 44 Joined: Sep 2007
Monday July 05, 2010 00:03 (NEW!)

Yeah there is definitely too much debris in the fins of the radiator, charge air cooler, & ac condenser. I've tried a couple times before to hose them down with water. Just low pressure with no nozzle on the end of the hose. I don't want to use any high pressure (air or water) because that'll probably bend the fins in, right? I don't think the water pump's impeller is slipping because it does cool back down. I never get the rpms up to 1800 so I wouldn't know about that part of it though. So what is the best way to go about cleaning all the debris out?

desertstormboy Posts: 221 Joined: May 2008
Monday July 05, 2010 09:04 (NEW!)

I can see your point about the ac helping keep the engine cool because it constantly keeps the fan kicking on. But on the contrary I know I remember seeing signs out west before some hills that told truckers to turn off the ac. I guess it might've had something to do with elevation or what have you. Anyway I did forget to mention when it overheated I was facing the sun dead on so that probably wasn't helping anything. The belts are tight & the fan is kicking on like it should. I wanted to go ahead & change out the thermostat while we were doing the fan clutch but the bossman didn't want to. Haven't checked the upper/lower coolant hoses temps but what does it mean if one is cooler than the other? I've never used that stop leak crap because it does exactly what you said. I hope to God the water pump isn't the problem because those things are a nightmare to change on these damn acerts. Is there any way to tell if the water pump is going bad short of taking it out?

-------------------------
"Some How I'm Truckin'!"

Quote

Top

Bottom

Mobiletech

Posts: 94
Joined: Jun 2010

Wednesday July 07, 2010 06:27

When you use low pressure water to clean the rad it just makes mud in the rad. The best way to clean it is with compressed air. It helps if you can separate the cores so you can get in between them.
Yes A/C will make it run hotter because it raises the temp of the cooling air going thru the rad. If it is really running hot the fan should be on anyway.
The temp drop on the rad hoses should be about 12 to 15 degrees. Too high means the rads plugged internally , too low means its plugged externally. This is tough to check on a truck because you have to do it quickly after you stop with it revved up and the engine hot.

Quote

Top

Bottom

BONESAW

Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 2010

Wednesday July 07, 2010 15:03

I've been trying to post a reply to your post but constantly been getting a bad server response. We'll see what happens this time around.

Mobiletech Posts: 15 Joined: Jun 2010
Wednesday July 07, 2010 08:27 (NEW!)

Well we took the pressure washer & just had at her yesterday. It didn't really bend the fins like I thought it would. From what I can see it looks like it made a hell of a difference. I'll see how she runs this next trip out & I'm hoping she'll do better. Regardless if if runs cooler or not I'm thinking I'll hit it with compressed air like you said next time I'm home. As for separating the cores can that be done without taking the hood off? I mean I'm sure it can but I know it'd be a whole lot easier with that hood out of the way. So for checking the temps on the hoses you should check em' while its running then immediately after you shut the truck off?

Thanks for the help everyone & I hope you all had a great holiday weekend.

-------------------------
"Some How I'm Truckin'!"

Quote

Top

Bottom

Mobiletech

Posts: 94
Joined: Jun 2010

Thursday July 08, 2010 05:47

You need to check the difference in temp between the top rad hose and bottom rad hose while its running.The thermostat needs to be open the fan running and the rpm at least at 1200 to get a good reading. the engine needs to be hot so you have to run it until it gets hot then pull over pop the hood and do a quick check. This can be tough to do on a truck much easier to do on a stationary industrial engine.
On most trucks you can move the cores apart enough with the hood on. You need a blowgun with a long tube and a 90 on the end to get down between them.
I think if there was quite a bit of dirt that you removed with the pressure washer you will probably be ok now. Shine a light thru it . If you can see it all over the core is clean.

Quote

Top

Bottom

JBALLELECTRONICS

Posts: 22
Joined: Aug 2010

Friday August 13, 2010 21:53

HELLO BONESAW,
THX FOR THE PLUG REGARDING OUR ECMS. WE DO GUARANTEE AT LEAST 1/2 MPG GAINS WITH OUR REPROGRAMMED ECMS. IF YOUR RUNNING A MXS CAT ACERT , WE CAN... BY INCREASING YOUR HP + TORQUE GET YOU THE FUEL SAVINGS YOU REQUIRE.
WE HAVE HAD MXS ACERTS INCREASED FROM 475-500+ HP TO 625HP @ 2050'LBS TORQUE. WE ALSO CUSTOM SET YOUR FLS-FTS PUMP SETTING. THE RECON ECMS WE SELL HAVE SAVED TRUCKERS THOUSANDS IN FUEL.

ANYWAY IF YOU OR ANYBODY OUT THERE IS INTERESTED IN OUR PROGRAMMING CALL DON @ 1-250-558-1139 OR EMAIL ME jballelectronics@shaw.ca

SORRY IF WE'RE SOLICITING HERE , BUT ISNT IT RIGHT TO LET TRUCKERS KNOW THEY CAN SAVE $$$$$$$$

WE HAVE PLENTY OF HAPPY REFERRALS FOR YA!

Quote

Top

Bottom

CATEGORY LISTINGS > CATERPILLAR

[ REFRESH ]