CATEGORY LISTINGS > DETROIT > Hard starting S60 [ REFRESH ]

Thread Title: Hard starting S60 Created On Thursday May 15, 2008 12:49

9200IH Posts: 71 Joined: May 2008

Thursday May 15, 2008 12:49 Hello I am new to this site. Lots of great info on here. I have a quick question. If I have the fuel valve shut off before the primary filter and I have one or more injectors leaking back and I let the truck sit for a few days will the truck start right away after I turn the valve back on? My problem is, if I let the truck set for a couple days with the fuel valve open it starts very hard. If I turn the fuel valve off and let it sit for a week turn the valve on and it fires up right away and runs great. I changed the check valve about 3 years ago and took it out about 6 weeks ago to make sure it wasn't stuck open and it seemed OK. When I changed the check valve if I remember right the dealer gave me a MPT end & I needed a FMT or something like that, it has been awhile. So I had the floor of my tuck tore apart to get to the check valve and I had to use the truck in a few hours so I took parts from the old one and mixxed them with the new check valve to get me back going. I think I need to get the correct check valve to start with. I changed transfer pump the other day, a couple lines and fittings. I have not been making oil and I have never had fuel in oil showing up in a oil test. If a injector is leaking would the fuel go down the return line if it is not going into the cylinder? I was refered to this site from a member of the AHTS. They have given me many ideas & I appreciate it Thanks for any Ideas Mike

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GoneFishen Posts: 1325 Joined: Jan 2007

Thursday May 15, 2008 17:23 The fuel system is a sealed type system. The suction line is under the fuel; level, the fuel return is also under the fuel level. The proper fuel check valve is used to keep the fuel in the engine because the engine is above the fuel level. So that said ANY leak from any hose/injector can drain back the fuel to the tank. We generally just replace the fuel check valve and wait for the next day for a test. In your case I would say to get the correct one and change it. Wait 24 hours and test the starting. You might also have a suction leak so do what I do. Park in a shady spot and go over the entire suction line system with a GOOD flashlight. You are looking for a 'wet' area where the fuel is seeping. Obviousy the pressure side will spray fuel. The injector can cause this also, We use a pop/pressure test machine but we have to remove all the in jectors from the engine to do this. The injector cups are cleaned and NEW injector seals are installed on the good injectors. If you have over 400K on a set of injectors they say to replace them. Me? I say run them till they die or untill an overhaul or if several injectors are causing problems. ------------------------- DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also. 1995 F250, 191k mi. Lost Wages, Nv

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9200IH Posts: 71 Joined: May 2008

Friday May 16, 2008 06:10 Thank You for the info Gone Fishin How often do you see cracked pickup tubes in fuel tanks? And if one of my tubes were cracked wouldn't it run terrible once the fuel got below the crack? 1996 IH 9200 1,012,000 miles Only have history for this truck since 757,000 miles. Only thing done inside this motor since I have owned it is rods& mains, a couple overheads and a front diamond seal. I will be getting a new check valve in the next few days. My truck is a set back front axle so you have to change the check valve from the interior of the truck.LOL I have seen some messages here about a "restricted fitting" is that on the return line on the back of the head or is the check valve screwed into it. Being I am the 3rd owner of the truck I just want to make sure everthing is correct on the back of the head. Thanks Mike

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GoneFishen Posts: 1325 Joined: Jan 2007

Friday May 16, 2008 21:19 On the restricted fitting thing. I cannot do the work. I cannot authorise any doing of the modification of the fitting. Drilling the fitting out to the NEXT size will provide 45 more horsepower. I proved this on the chassis dyno. The thing is the fuel is cooler. However this must not be done if the IDLE fuel pressure is below 14 psi. This is against EPA rules because it gives the engine more HP than is advertised. If you have a question on the fittings inside the fuel tank then there are several ways to test. The quickest way is to run on 1 tank for a test. Then run on the other one for another test. Another test is done by running the return fuel line is a bucket and run the engine at 1200 for approx. 1 minute to eliminate any air you put in. Then continue to run the engine at idle, 100 rpm, and rated speed. You are looking for bubbles in a continous stream. You don't want any air inside the fuel system. This causes poor atomization and poor spray patterns. One other thing I see with a high mileage engine is the seals on the injectors get hard and also the injector crab bolts are not properly torqued. We of course try to sell injectors but I just reseal the injectors and install new bolts and washers and use the new torque spec's. The bad seals and inproperly torqued injectors allow combustion gasses to enter the fuel system and giving you the owner a missfire or poor performance condition. The reason they sell injectors is because of the amount of fuel sprayed by the high mileage injectors is the holes are larger and this gives a poor atomization of the fuel as it is sprayed into the cylinder. I don't get a commission, I just fix engines. ------------------------- DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also. 1995 F250, 191k mi. Lost Wages, Nv

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edscustoms Posts: 41 Joined: Feb 2008	Monday May 19, 2008 16:08 i have a series 60 ddec 111 470 hp that is doing the same thing as his is except mine is now gaining oil with what looks like fuel ,oil thin do you think it would be a o ring on the injectors or bad injector thanks for any advice ------------------------- eddie cantrell
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GoneFishen Posts: 1325 Joined: Jan 2007

Monday May 19, 2008 21:56 Their are 3 places that the injectors can leak diesel into the oil system. Non of them are fixable in reality. You need at least 1 maybe 2 or 3. I will change out 1 but if the injectors are high mileage, I suggest a 6pac. I also include a new fuel filter also on the changeout. That is just my feelings on the filter but I ususally win out out of nothing else, a new injectors on a dirty fuel filter? ------------------------- DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also. 1995 F250, 191k mi. Lost Wages, Nv

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edscustoms Posts: 41 Joined: Feb 2008	Tuesday May 20, 2008 13:17 do you know anyway of checking for a bad injecto, my local area detriot said they did not have any way to bench test them ,some off the older engines we used to pull the exhaust manifold look for wet cylinder but that was old days .my engine does not miss or anything it just started getting fuel in the oil ------------------------- eddie cantrell
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GoneFishen Posts: 1325 Joined: Jan 2007

Tuesday May 20, 2008 19:21 We use the old tool used to test the old 2 cycle injectors. We can pressureize them and pop test them. However do this. Get a little bottle of fuel dye. Yellow works best. We sell it and so does Clatterpillar and Comapart. pour it into a bucket or into your primary fuel filter. Start the engine and run it for 30 seconds. Shut off the engine and use a black light to 'find' the leaking injector. Be sure to replace the filters and oil after the completed repairs. ------------------------- DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also. 1995 F250, 191k mi. Lost Wages, Nv

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ctinnovation Posts: 168 Joined: Oct 2007

Thursday May 22, 2008 16:10 Hello;;Something that has happened to me was I installed a new set of Detroit injectors in my engine and not two months later returning from Montreal the shut down lights came on on the dash and I noticed my oil pressure was very low. I shut the truck off wright away and went to see if I could find the trouble .When I pulled the dip stick out there were no hi or low oil marks visible,,,the oil pan was full to the top of the stick with fuel !! I had the truck towed to the shop where I removed the valve cover to have a look to see where the fuel came from. Couldn't see a thing wrong. I removed the pressure line that supplied the fuel to the injectors and plugged the return line with an air pressure gauge. Then I applied about 30 psi and found the problem wright away !! When they build the injectors they have to drill holes for the fuel to travel through and since that is done from the out side of the injector they have to put in a plug to stop it from exiting the injector and going into the engine where the oil is and in my case that is what caused the oil to be diluted so much it could no longer carry a proper pressure (engine shut down). I replaced the injector (warranty) and all was good! You could try the same thing but make sure you have something to regulate the air pressure. I'm not sure how much you can use but the hole in my injector was about 1/4 inch so it was not hard to find. Maybe you could put air in yours and just listen to see what you find. I no injection pressures in the injector are very high so the air thing for you might not work but its worth a try and its cheep too. Just a thought,,take care.

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GoneFishen Posts: 1325 Joined: Jan 2007

Thursday May 22, 2008 17:19 N3 injectors on the DDEC 5 engines fuel pressure running is 30 max. Pressurizing when the rocker is off does NOT find the leak. We use dye for the DDEC 5 engines. We use fuel pressure of 50 to 70 to find the leaker on a DDEC 1,2,3,4 engine. Dye works well also. ------------------------- DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also. 1995 F250, 191k mi. Lost Wages, Nv

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ctinnovation Posts: 168 Joined: Oct 2007

Friday May 23, 2008 17:39 I don't no what type of injectors u have but if there is a big enough leak and you install an air gauge in the return line which would stop the air from escaping and you put regulated air in the feed line listen carefully cause if the leak is bad enough you might be able to hear where its coming from.,,and if you cant then like gf said,,dye is the answer. Ya wont no till ya try and ya got nothing to lose.....Chuck Edited: Friday May 23, 2008 at 17:41 by ctinnovation

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ctinnovation Posts: 168 Joined: Oct 2007	Friday May 23, 2008 17:53 OK,,,I read it all over again and you have a 12.7 ltr engine so the air thing just might work . since you don't have a newer stile injector. This is how i found the leak in my non egr 14 ltr engine !!!!
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edscustoms Posts: 41 Joined: Feb 2008	Friday May 23, 2008 21:08 thanks alot i will try the air first and if that dont work i will get some dye and try again thanks for the help ------------------------- eddie cantrell
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9200IH Posts: 71 Joined: May 2008

Saturday May 24, 2008 01:00 Well this past Sunday & Monday I tore into the truck to get to the check valve on the back of the head. Put a new check valve in it, put a new return line on it from the check valve to the splitter that goes to the tanks. Bought a longer return line and put a loop in it. This was suggested to me by a couple guys on the antique truck site. To help keep the fuel from draining back to the tanks. The supply line that goes from the filter to the back of the head looked real bad, it had cuts in it from the mounting brackets and was hard and brittle. Put a new one of those on it too. I really thought I had found the problem with this line. Got it running about 3:00 in the afternoon Monday and left the fuel valve open. 3:30 in the morning it started right up. 12 1/2 hours of sitting. Didn't work Wednesday, Thursday morning early I had to go to work and the truck had sat for about 35 hours and it was hard starting. It took about 10 seconds of cranking to fire. Got out of the truck right away and looked at the stacks, no smoke, truck is idling perfect. I keep my truck inside and plugged in on a timer. I had to spend the night in the truck Thursday night. I shut the truck off at 5:45 in the afternoon, unstrapped my load, talked with the Amish boys and looked at there ponies. Went to bed and woke up shivering at 4:00 in the morning it was 36* out. I figured I should start the truck and let it run for a few minutes and it started right up. It had sat for about 10 hours. The moon was full and behind the truck so I could see the exhaust when I started the truck. It had about 1 foot of smoke out of each stake and that was it and it ran fine. Let it run tell idle slowwed down and shut the truck off, turned my bunk heater on and went back to bed. When I was working on the truck I looked everything over that I have not replaced already real good and could not find anything else that might cause the problem. I even got a small mirror inside the tanks and looked at the pick up tubes. Those are some pretty good sized tubes and I really can't see them cracking but I guess it is possible. Is my problem looking more like one or more of the injectors? Can another check valve be put in the supply side? Or would that restrict the fuel flow to much? Can I take my engine serial number to a Detroit Diesel shop and have them run the numbers to see if the first owner ( it was a fleet) had done any injector work? This wouldn't solve anything but atleast I would know more history on the engine. When a injector is leaking does the fuel alway go into the cylinder and into the oil or do they also leak back into the fuel supply? One more question. Am I asking to much out of the truck ---- Is 10 seconds of cranking after sitting for 35 hours, stored inside and plugged in for 4 hours to much cranking? I think it should fire right up but maybe not. Thanks for your help Mike

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ctinnovation Posts: 168 Joined: Oct 2007	Saturday May 24, 2008 05:32 One more thing,,Pressurizing the fuel passages in the cyl head with air with the valve cover off will definitely find the leak, if ,like I said,,it has a missing or loose check ball or plug which will allow fuel to enter the engine from the top. This is a FACT !!! I no this because I have DONE IT. take care.
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edscustoms Posts: 41 Joined: Feb 2008	Saturday May 24, 2008 16:11 i did it with air and found it leaking fuel up around injector with air bubbles do you think it cound be a o ring thanks a lot for the help this is a good site ------------------------- eddie cantrell
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ctinnovation Posts: 168 Joined: Oct 2007

Saturday May 24, 2008 19:27 Hi;;if you dont see any bubles around the other 5 and you only used 30 lbs pressure,,I would replace the injector along with new orings.There are a couple of places that the injector can leak so take a good long look at the injector part that is on the out side of the cyl head to see if you can see exactly where the air is comming from,checkvalve (hole plug ) . solinoid,ect ect ect. .I just dont to see ya waste your time and find the air was comming from the next injector.Not to mension waste your money!! take care.......Chuck

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ctinnovation Posts: 168 Joined: Oct 2007	Thursday May 29, 2008 17:16 Hello,,edscustoms I'm just checking to see if you replaced that injector you found bubbles come when you applied the air. did you replace the injector or just the orings. Is it ok now ?? Chuck
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edscustoms Posts: 41 Joined: Feb 2008

Thursday May 29, 2008 18:42 i found the leak at the check valve at the base of the injector i took it out and it had a bad o ring inside of it so i think it fixed that problem but it still leaks of when it sits for about 30 minutes when it starts it runs for 30 seconds and runs out of fuel so i think i will try to get a new check valve for the return i have looked the lines over and have not found any wet spots so i will keep looking thanks for the help ------------------------- eddie cantrell

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ctinnovation Posts: 168 Joined: Oct 2007	Friday May 30, 2008 18:48 One other thing,,,,Do you have the check valve installed on the proper line in the back of the head and are you sure the check valve is not installed backwards. ?? Just another thought. take care
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edscustoms Posts: 41 Joined: Feb 2008	Friday May 30, 2008 19:18 i did take it out and look at it but i put it back like it was other than that i dont know thanks ------------------------- eddie cantrell
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ctinnovation Posts: 168 Joined: Oct 2007

Sunday June 01, 2008 17:14 hello; If the engine starts wright away without a lot of cranking and it runs smooth ,then to me the head has to be full of fuel or it would take alot of cranking to get it to start because it has to pump the head full of fuel and that would take a long time and it would not b e running smoothly either. So ,,, the leak is likely out side the head. espeally if it start right away !!

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9200IH Posts: 71 Joined: May 2008

Thursday July 24, 2008 08:28 Well I did a bunch of stuff to try to stop my hard starting problem, check valve, new fittings, new lines, looking for damp spots, transfer pump. I talked to the mechanic that does my Detroit work, told him everything. He said yes we could pressurize the fuel rail with shop air and look for a leak and we could take the exhaust manifold off and look for a wet cylinder. But with the injectors possibly having 1,022,000 on them it would be better to save the labor and put it towards new injectors. So he (Detroit Shop) is putting 6 Reliabuilt Detroit injectors in it first week in August. This time of year I should be getting 8.3 mpg's and I am getting 7.7. Same loads, same driver(me) same fuel and when it starts hard I just don't like putting the starter to work so hard. Like I said in some earlier posts, I don't mind putting parts in this truck. I plan on keeping it for a long time. and I don't have any history before 757,000 miles. It was a fleet truck and I would imagine they kept it till about 600,000 (without putting much major stuff in it) then the bum I bought it from put 150,000 on it. The truck was in rough shape and I know he did not do any injector work. Being it is a 12 year old million mile truck I try to do something major to it every year other than the general maintanence. 2 years ago trans, clutch, flywheel, pressure plate, rear main seal. Last year rods & mains 995,000 miles date code on old bearings 10/1995. So they were original. This year injectors. I will post what goes on. Thanks Mike

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9200IH Posts: 71 Joined: May 2008

Wednesday August 20, 2008 15:29 Well I am on my second week with the new injectors and it is like a totally different engine. It runs smoother, more power, not slugish like it was before, black smoke is gone, my mpg is back up to 8.5(figured with a paper and pencil not dash display) And the best part is I let it sit for 3 days with less than quarter tanks and it fired right up without having the fuel valve shut off. I have $2400 into it which includes 6 Detroit Reliabuilt Injectors and labor and overhead set again. The mechanic said that #6 injector was the worst of the bunch. It had carbon up high on the cup or seat. I have never seen a Detroit injector or where it seats in the head so I can't visualize it or explain it. The injectors didn't have date codes so I have no idea if they were originals or not. Mike

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