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CATEGORY LISTINGS > DETROIT > 60 series gear case and timing. [ REFRESH ]
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60 series gear case and timing.


Created On Friday August 14, 2009 20:16 Diesel Talk
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joeturbodiesel
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Note Friday August 14, 2009 20:16 View thread in raw text format
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First of all I am new here and found this site in a quest for info to solve my problem. A lot of you have a vast knowledge of Detroit engines and have given me a lot to think about. I recently worked on a 12.7L for a friend and ran into a problem that I think will be of particular intrest to those of you who work on these engines but aren't say, Gone fishing or someone like that. I am a diesel mechanic in south Texas. I work primarily for a petroleum drilling company. Over the last several years we have slowly but surely converted all our 8v71's 12v71's and kt1150 cummins over to 60 series Detroits. At first stewart and stevenson, told us it was impossible to pull engines out of junk trucks and put them in rigs and pumps. After we bought 4 12.7 470 hp engines from them, and a service manual we discovered that we could in fact pull engines out of trucks tweak the harnesses and run them with very few problems. I have worked only on DDECIII and IV engines only typically built before 1997. Well, the other day a friend with a 2000 model FLD 120 Frieghtliner asked me to change his cam out for him. Like most of you are thinking, I asked him why he thought he needed a cam. He had someone pull the valve cover and after hearing a lot of knocking and discovered that a roller was missing from the injector rocker on the 1st cylinder. I pulled the valve cover myself prior to ordering parts and saw where the rocker had scored the cam lobe pretty bad. Well aside from the job itself, the problem I ran into was when I tried to pull off the cam gear and the tool I had used with no problem before would not engage in the hub of this cam hub. I went to the manual only to be disappointed with no info. I called S&S and they told me there is an updated bolt for that tool that is 2mm larger than the old bolt. Well before I called S&S i was studying the situation with my hands and dropped the gear while tugging on it and did not mark its position before I did that. Now i dont know where it was before exactly. I roll the engine around to get a reference from the timing marks and lo and behold it is off by several teeth. It seems odd to be that far off with such a short fall but whatever right? Wrong. I go ahead and check the book to see what it says before I proceed and it says that it is a hunting tooth design and where the timing marks should be. I think about it, not knowing yet what a hunting tooth design is yet and decide to roll the gear around to line it up with the mark on the idler gear. That should do right? Wrong! I go to set the valves/injectors after instaling the gear back on the cam with the new,one time use bolt when lo and behold when I get to cylinder #3, the engine locks up. What to do now? I go back to the timing marks(at 2:30 a.m.) and decide to change the gear to the other timing mark the engine locks up again and I give up for the night. I call S&S again and get educated about the particular gear system that is used to time these rascals. I am not comletely believing/understanding the guy that explained this to me and find this site and an engineering site that explains "hunting tooth design and purpose" when it dawns on me that I have a large job ahead of me. I have pulled apart 2 before to change bad gears but would pull the bull gear to set them in time because i felt it was easier and also that I didnt realize you had to turn it so many times to get all of them lined up. I good friend of mine went with me and we tried to use the bore scope to bypass pulling the front cover to no avail. We turned it 67 times before we got all the planets lined up. Conclusion= Mark the gears before you pull the cm gear or line up the marks. Two=If you pull the gear all the way off, Make sure you have the correct bolt for the cam gear puller before you take out the bolts that hold the intermediate plate to the head. I hope this helps someone because it cost me 12 hrs of labor that I couldnt charge for because it was my fault. Happy wrenching, Joseph
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GoneFishen
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Note Sunday August 16, 2009 20:16 View thread in raw text format
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They make a tool to keep the gear in place. Of course this costs money. I hope you replaced the bolt with a new one. Don't even ask. There is also an area in the manual where it is possible to check engine timing after the cam install. This is required on all our cam replacements. Same procedure as the 2 cycles.[hope you remember that]. All is well I see. Enjoy the repowers.

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DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also.
1995 F250, 191k mi.
Lost Wages, Nv
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joeturbodiesel
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Note Sunday August 16, 2009 22:28 View thread in raw text format
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I actually have the tool to hold thecam gear. What I ran into was there are two different size bolts for "old" style and "new" style cam gear hubs. If I'm not mistaken one is 22mm and the other "new" one is 24mm. Anyway, when you don't have the right sized bolt and you drop the gear before installing the right size bolt that you ordered from S&S for $89.xx is retime the engine, I guess? well thats what I did anyway. Now, I read about checking the timing in the service manual with a dial indicator but like the hunting tooth gear system, I didn't really understand what the purpose of it was if it seems like you can't adjust the timing. Unless theres more I don't understand. After getting everything back together, it fired right up as soon as I hit the button. No heavy smoke, no white smoke, no missing, no popping through a full acceleration cycle. I didnt check it under a load due to some other circumstances but it otherwise seemed o.k.. Can you explain the dial indicator method of checking the timing and how, if possible, to change the timing if it is off?

Edited: Sunday August 16, 2009 at 22:34 by joeturbodiesel
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joeturbodiesel
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Joined: Aug 2009

Note Sunday August 16, 2009 22:32 View thread in raw text format
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Oh, by the way, I did install a new cam bolt twice. The final time had a new bolt torqued only once. After that fiasco, I'm not taking a chance with a $20 bolt. I don't even need to ask.
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westcoast
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Note Wednesday August 19, 2009 07:04 View users profile View thread in raw text format
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As Gonefishen said it,s the same as a two stroke except on a series 60 your checking injector lift on the middle of the roller , same proceedure to find actual tdc etc etc- when your going to change a camshaft and you have doubts concerning where your at check your timing first on the easiest cylinder to get too and leave it there then pull it apart taking note of position of locating pin in camshaft and if you happen to pull the hub to far you can unload the geartrain ( back off the idler gear hub ) and with the help of a rocker shaft with spacers and injector follower only, use your reference cylinder that you checked first up to find where your cam gear was timed . Usually when the hub falls it will only be one tooth advanced or retarded and it,s way quicker than pulling the front off and before Gonefishen picks me up on it replace the injector o-rings on the injector that you removed Regards David

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detroit
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GoneFishen
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Note Wednesday August 19, 2009 20:20 View thread in raw text format
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If the tool is used backwards there is really no reason for the gear to move. We use it so the large hub is outwards because we are required to replace the perimeter seal every time. Placing the tool with the large end towards the gear helps keep the gear in 1 place. I have used the smaller bolt as a place holder until the larger one is no-longer in use. Glad that all is working.

-------------------------
DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also.
1995 F250, 191k mi.
Lost Wages, Nv
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