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CATEGORY LISTINGS > DETROIT > Cylinder Kits for 12.7L RE: GRandpa, Joez Or any other expert [ REFRESH ]
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Cylinder Kits for 12.7L RE: GRandpa, Joez Or any other expert


Created On Monday April 13, 2015 20:33 Diesel Talk
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Tpenner
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Note Monday April 13, 2015 20:33 View thread in raw text format
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Hello. I have a question for you 12.7 experts- my 12.7 calls for 15/1 compression cylinder kits and were installed when I had inframe done last summer. Now I have a rough/hard starting condition with lots of white smoke and sputtering. Thru countless hours in searching for problem finally came to do compression test on engine and found 5 cylinders well under spec and 1 at minimum spec as per Detroit. Suggestion was made by shop foreman at local Detroit shop that it is caused sometimes by the 15/1 kits. Engine has no blow by, lots of power, runs good and decent economy. Have not torn down engine yet to confirm, but am looking for advice on higher compression kits that would work for my engine as local Detroit shop is of no help in that regard. engine details are: 1999 PK series engine in KW W900 500 hp serial #06R0449446.
Thank you in advance to all and any advice.
Tori
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grampa
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Note Tuesday April 14, 2015 04:53 View thread in raw text format
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diesel engines are compression ignited so in cold weather lower compression = less heat = harder starting..but lower static compression = lower pyro temps and lower water temp. you get your total compression back with bigger turbo..more fresh and cooler air..in my way of thinking if it's not running bad or using oil i would run it..when they did compression check did they take into consideration 15-1 and not 17-1 going to be difference between these..15-1 is usually marine use..i don't have cyl kit # in front of me but i will get it later today..good luck..
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Tpenner
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Note Tuesday April 14, 2015 05:34 View thread in raw text format
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Thank you grandpa. The cylinder kits in mine are 15/1 and they told me this happen on occasion with these. I run mostly North of the 49 th parallel so I deal with cold temps for 5 months of the year. I will very much appreciate some part number advice on this.
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grampa
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Note Tuesday April 14, 2015 15:11 View thread in raw text format
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i would assume seeing that your engine is a 500 it has FORGED STEEL PISTONS not cast steel , which also means it has piston coolers,if you use vin#06R0527244 it has 17 to 1 compression and are forged steel pistons with skirts relieved for piston coolers..i still say if your big concern is hard starting i would install measured shot starting fluid system..just remember get engine spinning before hitting button..not just a shot from a can but the actual system..or use block heater run off of APU..if no APU how about webasto or espar hydronic engine heater.the cold is your hard start enemy..just hate to see somebody rebuild so soon if hard start is major complaint..assuming it was 15 to1 before rebuild didn't it hard start before rebuild,if not there's more to this than someone wants to say..good luck
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grampa
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Note Tuesday April 14, 2015 15:17 View thread in raw text format
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just found cyinder kit number 23532562 detroit says 17 to 1
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Tpenner
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Note Tuesday April 14, 2015 15:38 View thread in raw text format
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Thank you grandpa. It did not do this before inframe so not sure which Pistons it had. Has been suggested that in assembly line the Pistons were upgrade but the change did not reflex in the serial number parts list. I do have a webssto which makes it possible to start it in subzero temps but at 25-30 below it gets difficult. Plus the smoke at that temp is horrendous and embarrassing. Also at warm idle it will smoke blue constantly with that raw fuel smell and makes stacks slightly wet. Maybe I am too particular and the fact it didn't do it before is my biggest reason for wanting a solution to this. Thank you very much on your advice and help. I have already learned much over last few years just reading your post??
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JoeZ
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Note Saturday April 18, 2015 04:48 View thread in raw text format
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Well, 15-1 or 17-1....either engine should start and run fine. I have seen both in cold weather run without a problem. Certainly the 17-1 would be a better choice, but 15-1 engines.....thousands of them out trere are starting and running fine in colder weather. The turbo at start and idle is not giving your engine any boost, so that wouldn't be an issue. It might be worthwile to do a cylinder leakdown test. 15-1 piston should give you a positive compression test for that engine no matter what configuration the top of the piston is.
Like grandpa asked...did they check compression for 15-1 or 17-1??
The other question is...was this a problem as soon as the engine was done or did it gradually get worse?

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One of the last 2 Stroke mechanics left.
44 years in the business and worked on everything from 53 series to 149 series. Winding it down now...time to move on.
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Tpenner
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Note Saturday April 18, 2015 05:40 View thread in raw text format
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Hello joez. Inframe was done in August and the problem became evident beginning of November which was the first real cold weather we got last fall. Engine runs fine and performs well. The problem is at cold start and at idle when temps are below freezing it smokes blue continually. I do not know the difference in the test procedure between the diff compression ratios. The test was done at local Detroit dealer. I have found 5 other trucks that have similar cold weather issues in my area and they all have 15.1 Pistons. My thought is if that is the common denominator in this.
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Tpenner
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Note Saturday April 18, 2015 06:51 View thread in raw text format
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Joez what would a cylinder leak down test tell me? Also the compression in my engine: 1 cylinder at 450 psi all others in the low 400's. Detroit spec is 450-550. Not sure what cold weather means to you but I live and work in western Canada. Normal winter temps are 0 to 30 below F. My engine like I said performs well. Dynos at 459 hp to wheels. No oil consumption blow by At 1 inch Mercury at dyno test. I had liner protrusion done to 4 thou. All oem parts except turbo which is Borg Warner 1701702. Even with engine preheat it sputters and misses and smokes white like crazy at sub zero temps. At 40F it sputters and smokes very white at cold start without preheat. The blue smoke at idle is hardly noticeable at 40F and above
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heavyhaulerss
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Note Sunday April 19, 2015 19:54 View users profile View thread in raw text format
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are you getting any air in fuel ? any black soot in fuel or in fuel filter?

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HEAVYHAULERSS
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Tpenner
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Note Sunday April 19, 2015 20:53 View thread in raw text format
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Heavy haulers no black soot in fuel or filters. No air in fuel. Example: 35F cold start it sputtersi misses and smokes white. Same ambient temp but preheat engine with webssto it starts beautiful except blue smoke. Warmer engine little higher cylinder compression at start is my consensus
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heavyhaulerss
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Note Saturday April 25, 2015 07:39 View users profile View thread in raw text format
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Tpenner.. I know how ya feel. not hijacking the thread,but I have had the same problem. years ago. 6 maybe, maybe more. only when cold it would take a long cranks to start after sputter, shutter, clang, puff, puff, was told rings are wore compression e.t.c. after inframe, no difference. if I let truck set overnight in hot weather, had no prob starting. ONE day after checking my coolant & draining my davco fuel filter in hot weather, even though my truck had not been started all weekend I got the idea that it had something to do with pressure as opposed to just heat itself. when opening up the coolant cap where was pressure quite a bit. when opening drain on fuel, it came out with a lot of pressure too. this does not happen on cold weather.

I have replaced all fuel lines & that seems to have helped a little. I get airl in my fuel & my fuel filters are getting black, truck in shop for a week now getting this diagnosed along with other things. was told it could be exhaust gasses getting by the injector O rings. I know you do not have that problem. I read somewhere, that your problem may be fuel leaking down the cylinder wall when truck is off & when you start it has to burn off all that fuel & cold weather exacerbates the problem & warm weather masks it. I am not sure I have helped you in my post, sorry, but I do feel your pain.

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HEAVYHAULERSS
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heavyhaulerss
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Note Saturday April 25, 2015 07:46 View users profile View thread in raw text format
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forgot to say I still have the problem after 6 years, I did find that after having my inj set back to factory spec it would put out less white smoke at start up, less blue smoke at idle & less black smoke out the stack when putting the pedal down. but also less m.p.g. & less power. there are those who say it's just a detroit, mine does the same thing, e.t.c. when at one time mine didn't do this & since it started no one can figure it out. I think it may be more than 1 thing causing it, maybe a few. just don't know. good luck.

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HEAVYHAULERSS
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Tpenner
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Note Saturday April 25, 2015 08:09 View thread in raw text format
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Thanks heavyhaulers. I believe too that it is couple things combining and yeah there are those that say it is just a Detroit thing. But with some minor research I have found that all the detroits in my area that have this similar issue are all 99 or older models and all have the 15/1 compression Pistons. The severity varies a bit also. My engine fires right away but sputters and smokes at cold start so my fuel is not running off like you mentioned. It does have a hard diesel knock when cold so I know one or 2 injectors are over fuelling but my biggest concern is why do I have 1 cylinder at minimum spec and5 cylinders 40 pounds under spec on compression? Engine has 1 in blowby pressure when dyno was done. Uses no oil and runs real good when warm. I ran it in hard and have 80000 miles since inframe so cannot be worn out yet. I am having it checked for air in fuel just to rule that part out. Also I found it interesting on 1 of the trucks I researched for this there was an updated overhaul kit available thru Detroit for "smoking issues". And guess what-- that kit had 16.5/1 compression piston kits. So what am I suppose to think
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MXS67454
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Note Thursday April 30, 2015 05:40 View thread in raw text format
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I have a 99 PK exhibiting exact symptoms as OP's engine. bought truck 7/14 with 150k on inframe done by Detroit. cold start problems started in November. have since done injectors, fuel lines
and a few other minors things with some improvement. local DD shop says they have seen this a few times when a low nox update inframe is done and DD has a ECM file that should fix or improve things. I have not tried the file as I have a BW 17702 and ECM tuned by Rebel127 ( Leon ) . at some point I will send ECM back to Leon as he says he should be able to improve cold starts
hope this helps
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MXS67454
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Note Thursday April 30, 2015 05:47 View thread in raw text format
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Also,, I had 2 injectors over fueling which is why they were replaced and I still have a hard fuel knock on cold start although it's not near as bad. are the 17 to 1 pistons still available from DD ?
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Tpenner
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Note Thursday April 30, 2015 06:15 View thread in raw text format
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Hey MXS67454. Local Detroit shop has done all they can do as far as programming and they also advanced cam timing but all to no avail. Low compression is just low compression. The 17/1 piston are still available and as far as my research shows that most of the newer ddec4 engines use the higher compression Pistons. Over haul kit number is R23532577 I believe. Or use that serial number grampa quoted to get that kit.
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MXS67454
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Note Thursday April 30, 2015 07:16 View thread in raw text format
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TPenner... sounds like we are both at same point. did DD's ecm program change anything ?
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Tpenner
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Note Thursday April 30, 2015 07:45 View thread in raw text format
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MXS67454. The program gave more power but not much changed otherwise. Although I changed all 6 injectors shortly after which improved things a little bit but still have 1 or 2 bad ones. Still have diesel knock at cold start. Will be taking engine apart again in couple weeks. See if we see any reason for low compression. If not than in go the 17/1 Pistons. I might put them in either way
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MXS67454
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Note Thursday April 30, 2015 10:30 View thread in raw text format
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would be a shame to do pistons considering how well this truck runs when warmed up but it may come to that. thanks for the input .please update this thread should you figure something out
best of luck and thanks again
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Tpenner
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Note Thursday April 30, 2015 10:37 View thread in raw text format
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Will do
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Tpenner
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Note Thursday May 28, 2015 08:45 View thread in raw text format
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Update for those of you interested. Torn down engine for further diagnosis and found all cylinder slightly scored. Had injectors tested and 3 failed squirt test. Got 3 injectors under warranty( all 6 had been replaced in February under warranty). Thought is the first set of injectors scored cylinders. Not bad enough that Detroit would not give warranty as injector damage. And not scored bad enough to conclusively blame low compression on scoring( no blow by and also no oil consumption). Decided to instal the 16.5/1 compression piston kit. Got 4000 miles on it already. Runs nice and sounds way different now. More diesel rattling sound. Plus looks like I gained some fuel mileage. As temps are close to summertime readings now will not know for sure what cold Starts will be like till late summer/fall. Thanks to everyone for your interest and advice. PS: pyro temp is up maybe 100 degrees no noticible rise in engine temp. Pyro was always way cool on this engine to begin with so the 100 degree rise is not a concern at all.
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egantrucking
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Note Thursday May 28, 2015 09:48 View thread in raw text format
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Thanks for the update. I learn a lot on here.

Scored cylinders could be from contaminates when they rebuilt it last summer?. I don't know how you have three bad injectors. Scary for those of us who may want to replace injectors for a tune up!

Do you have a waste gate on your turbo? Do you still build the same manifold pressure with the different pistons?

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michael egan
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Tpenner
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Note Thursday May 28, 2015 10:14 View thread in raw text format
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I don't think contaminants were the problem but don't know. Quality work out of this shop. Manifold pressure same or slightly higher than before. As for injectors I will never buy a set of Detroit reman injectors again. Any sign of trouble and a set of Bosch remans will be installed. Could not get them soon enough this time so settled for warranty Detroit remans. That is 9 injectors I have gotten on warranty in less than 1 year. For those looking to replace injectors STAY away from Detroit remans(reliabilt)
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Tpenner
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Note Thursday May 28, 2015 10:59 View thread in raw text format
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Non waste gated Borg Warner 171702 turbo Egan
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MXS67454
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Note Saturday June 13, 2015 07:21 View thread in raw text format
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Thanks for the update Tpenner. interested if your cold starts improve
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Tpenner
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Note Saturday June 13, 2015 07:29 View thread in raw text format
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Thanks for the interest MXS67454. The coldest cold start so far after repair was 31 degrees F. World of a difference. Absolutely no sputter/fart and only one small puff of white smoke and no blue smoke at all. I think problem is totally cured but will confirm when winter temps hit in November again.
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Tpenner
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Note Thursday March 10, 2016 18:49 View thread in raw text format
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Hello again. For those interested in my solution to my problem it goes like this. Did in frame with 16.5/1 pistons. In Nov 2015 also replaced all 6 reliabilt injectors with aftermarket rebuilt 5915 injectors. Cold starts are just awesome now. Fires right up. Might snort once with white smoke for second or 2 than regular cold start smoke for about 5 to 10 minutes. No more blue hazy smoke when warm. Real nice power increase with 5915 injectors. Fuel mileage actually came up couple points also. Keeps up with a tuned 535 isx no problem. Only thing I would like is an ecm tune, but it works so good that I am scared to mess with it.
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hillbillydeluxe
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Note Friday March 18, 2016 11:37 View thread in raw text format
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Hi every one wanna start by saying THANK YOU to both GRandpa and Joez I've learned a lot from reading your posts!!! I live in ND and have a 2000 W900 with a12.7 500hp premium!! what ever that means lol any how I bought it in 07 with 900,000 and went to 1.4 before first inframe but since day 1 its had the cold start "blues" i call em lol and every detroit I ever drove or know of does I was told its actually a choke type deal in ecm when super cold it will only fire on couple cylinders at first and as it starts to warm up it brings in the rest and the best and easist along with cheapest is just plug it in if its gonna sit shut off in the cold thats what i was told any how lol

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