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CATEGORY LISTINGS > CUMMINS > ISX 485 crank seal leak [ REFRESH ]
Thread Title:

ISX 485 crank seal leak


Created On Wednesday November 24, 2010 06:06 Diesel Talk
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jzr75601
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Note Wednesday November 24, 2010 06:06 View thread in raw text format
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Hello ALL

I just recently installed a "factory new" flywheel housing on a 2008 KW T800 which has a Cummins ISX 485.
I followed every step in the factory manual including checking the housing bore run out (or bore eccentricity),the
housing face run out, and rear main seal protrusion check.All these checks were of course performed with a dial indicator.
I used the special $250.00 Cummins rear seal removal and installation tool and followed the instructions to the letter.
I used only a 10% soap and water solution only on the outer circumference of the seal assembly as instructed in the manual.
I reassembled everything, took it for a 15 mile road test and found oil leaking through the threaded hole at the lower end of the bell housing. Any ideas of where I may have gone wrong?
Also, the instructions and example in the manual for calculating the bore and face run out are not very clear and difficult to understand.

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john school
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westcoast
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Note Wednesday November 24, 2010 16:09 View users profile View thread in raw text format
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What were your final run out measurements ? I know cummins say 0.008" but thats too much for face and bore runout - Did you get oil on the face of the seal ? Did you have any marks on the sealing surface ? Did all of the old gasket come off ? Regards David

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detroit
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Ed1
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Note Wednesday November 24, 2010 16:30 View thread in raw text format
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With the ISX they seemed to do better than prievious cummins with thier machineing on thier flywheel housing . Most of the time when I put them on the dowels and tourqe them they are in spec. If you post your dial indicator readings at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 oclock positions we can help you out with that.
Dose the crank have any deep scratchs where the wear ring sets?
Did the seal try to seperate when you installed it.
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jzr75601
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Note Wednesday November 24, 2010 23:30 View thread in raw text format
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Thank you for your replies.
My bore run out readings were: 6 o'clock =0.00 at 9 = -.0065 at 12= -.006 at 3= -0015. my main bearing clearance was .005
Face run out were: 12 o'clock = 0.00 3= +.002 6= -.0015 9= .0025.
I used the installation tool which is included with the new seal assembly together with the special Cummins removal/installation tool. The "included" tool has a flat surface on one side and a stepped beveled protrusion on the opposite side which according to the manual is to be used in conjunction with the special Cummins removal/installation tool with the flat surface of the included tool bearing against the actual seal assembly it self.
After progressively tightening the clamping nuts a 1/2 turn at a time in a clockwise fashion the tool provided with the seal actually stops and bears flat against the bore and essentially sets the seal dead flush with the bore and not counter sunk to any degree.
I carefully removed and cleaned any traces of the old red colored sealing compound left behind on the crank from the original seal and made sure there were no oily films on the crank and seal bore by using brake Kleen.
The crank was clean, smooth and free of any scratches and I was very careful not to get any oil any where near the seal during installation. I actually drained the engine oil ahead of time.
Did I get the Flywheel housing concentricity wrong? I'm at a loss here. Thanks again!

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john school
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JoeZ
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Note Thursday November 25, 2010 01:29 View thread in raw text format
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What was the reason for changing the housing?

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One of the last 2 Stroke mechanics left.
44 years in the business and worked on everything from 53 series to 149 series. Winding it down now...time to move on.
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jzr75601
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Note Thursday November 25, 2010 02:31 View thread in raw text format
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joez,the housing was damaged and deemed non repairable.
Ed1, I forgot to mention that after removing the special tooling, the seal appeared nice and square in the housing,nothing looked rolled over or separated in any way, just nice, clean, square and flush with the housing bore.

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john school
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Ed1
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Note Thursday November 25, 2010 18:22 View thread in raw text format
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If my math is right your fly wheel housing is in the ok zone on the chart. What damaged the flywheel housing that you replaced ? How many miles are on the engine ? how many miles are on your main bearings ?
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JoeZ
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Note Thursday November 25, 2010 19:26 View thread in raw text format
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My first concern is what was the cause of the first housing failure?? Accident? Crack? This truck isn't all that old.....ya know...

Aside from the checking the bore, you have to check the crank runout.....very important.....could be a problem there.

Under perfect conditions things just happen. You could have done everything by the book, and still have a leaky seal. If you have determined it to be the rear seal, you have no choice but to take it apart and go over everything very closely again. Sometimes things just happen through no fault of yours. I can tell you from years of experience......I have have a few seals that didn't hold...took whatever apart and everything looke perfect....still leaked....anybody that hasn't had something like this happen.....hasn't done very many.

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One of the last 2 Stroke mechanics left.
44 years in the business and worked on everything from 53 series to 149 series. Winding it down now...time to move on.
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jzr75601
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Note Friday November 26, 2010 04:23 View thread in raw text format
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Something was inadvertently left in the housing after a clutch adjustment that put a hole through the housing.

The engine has 4000 miles on it and I would venture to say the main bearings are original.I had .005 rear main bearing oil clearance while using a bar and fulcrum to raise the rear end of the crank as part of the bore run out check. Oil pressure was about 45 psi with no unusual knocks or noises.
I will be taking down the transmission again....it has a Road Ranger RTO it is a 13 speed I believe.
As joeZ suggested I'll start out by checking the crankshaft run out....but after this I'm a bit uncertain as to what to look for next.
At first, I thought I had set the housing bore out of spec. causing the seal to be off center and stressing the seal.
Or maybe the seal needed to be pressed a few thousandths further into the housing to clear the lip on the rear side of the flywheel which centers or "pilots" the flywheel over the rear crankshaft flange.
Another possibility that came to mind is someone removed the seal from the sealed plastic bag and stuffed it back into the box with the seal exposed ...after I discovered this the following day my first inclination was to reorder a new seal... but at the time I did'nt think this was a critical issue.
Anyone know how much shaft mis-alignment these unitized seals can tolerate?Are they much more critical than a conventional lip type rear main seals?
At this point I'm uncertain if I have a tooling "use" issue or an alignment problem.Can some one offer a procedure that has always worked for them? Again, Thank you to all

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john school

Edited: Friday November 26, 2010 at 21:03 by jzr75601
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jzr75601
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Note Friday November 26, 2010 21:22 View thread in raw text format
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David,could you please elaborate a bit on the Cummins .008 bore and face alignment spec? thank you .smile

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john school

Edited: Friday November 26, 2010 at 21:33 by jzr75601
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westcoast
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Note Saturday November 27, 2010 05:05 View users profile View thread in raw text format
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I like to set them up as close to 005 " TIR and under if possible , as ed1 said most times you can fit them and they,re on the low spec but sometimes I,ve taken the dowel rings out centralize the housing . When you said that the seal was out of it,s packaging had somebody already handled it or tried to use it ? and as joe said check crank run out , there,s alot of leverage with flywheel and clutch bolted on the back especially when it broke the housing Regards David

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detroit
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jaybyrd
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Note Saturday November 27, 2010 10:26 View thread in raw text format
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first make sure the leak is from the engine and not the trans second you may need a ware sleeve did the new one come with one also you have to look at the crank and the bell housing bolts they could be leaking through the threads also keep in mind of the bolts not loosening on the trans bellhousing
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jaybyrd
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Note Saturday November 27, 2010 10:30 View thread in raw text format
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also 08 is too new to have any crank problems if you do it should be covered under warranty i am a kw dealer tech in ny
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jzr75601
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Note Saturday November 27, 2010 12:11 View thread in raw text format
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David,I did have a difficult time understanding the calculation procedure in general....not so much the graph with the X and Y intercepts.... but the work sheet and the examples given. All my numbers were negative numbers. I started by setting the indicator at zero at 6 o'clock and continued in a clockwise direction..... at 9 o'clock I read negative .0065 then at 12 o'clock I had negative .006 at 3 o'clock negative .0015 and finally back to zero again at 6 o'clock.
Not to confuse matters but Cummins instructs you to add the oil clearance (which in my case was .005) to the reading at 12 o'clock which in this case was negative -.006.....in my effort to grasp what what was going on here I compared this procedure to one for a CAT C-12 eng. and CAT instructs you to divide the oil clearance.My apologies for my thick head... but I'm still unclear on exacty how this works. .confused
In regards to the oil seal.... I think some one was just curious and removed the seal from the plastic,looked it over and returned it to the box it self. We have a "captive" fleet here and jobs such as this one specifically are at least a little uncommon.
We work on a very wide range of equipment from turf care equipment to large earth moving equipment.So some of the guys get curious when something new comes along
THANK YOU!

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john school

Edited: Saturday November 27, 2010 at 12:40 by jzr75601
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jzr75601
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Note Saturday November 27, 2010 13:05 View thread in raw text format
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jaybyrd,I did think about the possibility of oil finding it's way through a bolt.... but I'm uncertain if the holes in the block are "blind" or if they are actually open into the crankcase itself.
The rear main seal on this engine( for lack of a better description) is a unitized design where the seal and wear ring are combined in one complete assembly.

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john school
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jaybyrd
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Note Saturday November 27, 2010 13:26 View thread in raw text format
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was the pilot bearing replaced if so some of them come with a snap ring on them that needs to be removed on a cummins engine
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westcoast
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Note Monday November 29, 2010 00:19 View users profile View thread in raw text format
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Going by Cummins graph your housing is within spec but if i,d set it up I would have calculated it differently - divided the oil clearance and moved the housing down and to the right - giving a truer reading . Oil can come up the threads of the housing bolts but with new gasket and sealed tension bolts would be very unlikely Regards David

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detroit
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westcoast
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Note Monday November 29, 2010 02:09 View users profile View thread in raw text format
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<< also 08 is too new to have any crank problems if you do it should be covered under warranty i am a kw dealer tech in ny >>

We were,nt suggesting a factory fault with the crankshaft but a tool being left in the bell housing opening , starting the engine - then breaking the flywheel housing hence checking crank runout Regards David

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detroit
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